What He Learned From Interviewing The Greatest Stock Traders Ever - Jack Schwager

Jack Schwager, the Market Wizards author, joins Threadguy fresh off the launch of his new book, The Next Generation. He covers decades of market evolution from the pit era to AI, the Paul Tudor Jones cotton blowup, the solo trader who has never had a losing month, and why the unknowns in the new book stack up against the legends of the 80s. Closes on his Mount Rushmore of traders, why AI will never solve the markets, and the position flip he made the morning of the interview.

Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:00

Yo, yo, yo. Mr. Jack Schwinger. How are you, man? It is an absolute pleasure to um to have you here. I don't think you need a huge introduction, but I just want to start and say it's a pleasure to meet you. Congratulations on the launch of your most recent book, Market Witchers, the Next Generation. I got a copy right here, right in front of me. And um, yeah, man, it's it's great to have you here. How is everything? Great. Thanks. Awesome. I look, hopefully I don't do too much talking, but I want to start and just give you a quick intro to let you know who I am. You're live right now, so who you're talking to as well, who's in the audience. Um, I'm thread guy in the internet. My name is Michael in real life. And my quick background is I started trading, if you could say, with sneakers, flipping Supreme, streetwear, sort of like the internet hustle culture in the late 2010s. And I really got introduced to this game through crypto and NFTs. And so 2020, 2021, we were trading crypto, 2023, 24, 25 cycle, we were trading a lot of meme coins and everything on-chain. And near the end of 2025, the crypto market took a massive hit. And it was boring, it was slow, there wasn't a lot of volatility. And I was trying to figure out, you know, I'm live every day. What are we going to talk about? What are we going to trade? And you look over the corner to the stock market and you see these AI stocks and these semi-stocks making new highs after new high. And we really pivoted everything that we were doing into paying attention to stocks. And then as this Iran war has really kicked into gear with the US, paying attention to commodities, trading oil, and the stream has devolved into basically all assets across all markets. And it's funny because compared to a lot of the wizards that you interview in your books, it's like I'm I'm I think of it like I learned trading backwards, and I came to stocks after I was trading for you know four or five years full time. And so a funny story that I'll give you is very early, like near the end of 2025, when I was talking about stocks a lot. I posted this clip from the stream, and it was replied to by Chris Camillo. And it kind of all this engagement, I never heard of Chris Camillo in my life, and I clicked on his Twitter profile, and his banner was Unknown Market Wizards. And I'm like, wait, I'm reading this book right now. And I was, I think I was somewhere in the middle of the book, and it's in front of me. And I opened and I scrolled to the Chris Camillo chapter. And for someone like me who got started in these like alternative markets, learned trading second, Chris Camillo is like the I maybe mentioned I almost cried when I read the Chris Camillo story. It was like the greatest thing I'd ever read in my life. And I actually reached out to Chris and he came on the stream a couple months ago and maybe gave us the best interview we've ever done. So just a personal thank you for all the work that you've done and introducing myself and the audience to some unbelievable people.

SPEAKER_01 3:05

Sure. Thanks.

SPEAKER_00 3:06

Yeah, of course. Um, I guess to start, like um, a funny bit, uh, I feel as I've read a bunch of your books, is it always feels like near the end you you sort of say you're done. Like this is the last release. I'm done. There's no more. Like this is it, this is it. And then you know, you put out the the next generation, and then you've also teased that you're working on on a new uh, I think a hedge fund one as well. Why why why do you keep going? Like what what what is it? Why why do you keep going?

SPEAKER_01 3:36

Well, I I never intend to write another book after I finish a book, and I always end up seeming to write another book. Um, well, basically, I do do like writing, so that that is an underlying thing, but I wasn't intending to write this book, and uh it came about because uh, as you may notice or you wouldn't notice prominently, there's a co-author in this book, George Coyle. I've never worked with a co-author before, nor had I any intention to. And uh, what had happened is uh we had a mutual acquaintance who asked me uh if I could look at George Coyle's some of his articles. He had been writing about great traders, and he had particularly and he had written an article about Michael Marcus, who happens to be chapter one of the first Market Wizards book. And he wanted to know if he got it right, because I personally knew knew Michael. And uh I read it, it was pretty good, and I we spoke and I gave him some suggestions, and and I think at the end of that conversation, or maybe the next one we had, I said, you know, uh George, you write pretty well and you've got some interesting stuff. If you want, uh yeah, I'll introduce you to my editor. And he declined, which he now says was kind of a bonehead thing to do, but he did. He wasn't he wasn't intending to write a book, he was just writing these articles almost for self-um education or just to retain that knowledge after doing the research. So um anyway, after a few, it yeah, he sent me we continued these periodic conversations, and uh he wanted me to be part of the book because he was using a lot of my material, a lot of my books for source material. And um, so at one point he had sent me two full chapters, and I said, you know, I could write my take on these and like add like a uh conclusion section, and I wrote that up, and um, we submitted those chapters to my editor, and uh he said, Yeah, this is good, but you know, it would be better if you did actual interviews. So kind of through it right back to the to the old market wizard format uh format. So that's how this book came about. And uh George offered to bow out. I said, No, this is if it wasn't for you, I wouldn't be working on this at all. And uh so we did it. It was uh so we co-authored this book, and uh I kind of tried to uh instill in him all the things I do and the style and and the methodology and all of that. Uh and the end product comes out pretty much sounding like uh any other market wizard book, I think.

SPEAKER_00 6:14

You know what's crazy is I'm reading I so I have this big like reading. There's not that many great finance books. Reminiscence of Stock Operator was where I started. It's probably my favorite. And I'm reading this this book right now, More Money Than God. And it's you know the story of the hedge funds through basically every decade. And it it like references your interviews like verbatim because I would read the Dracubility chapter, and then yesterday I was reading your Dracueller chapter. I'm like, I've read I've read these words before, like the influence of it across future media is is unbelievable.

SPEAKER_01 6:47

Yeah, and that is a I want to I'll give a plug to that book. More Money Than God is an excellent book. Um, it's so good. Well written, well researched, yeah. So uh it's one of the best books written on finance.

SPEAKER_00 7:02

It it's it's a crazy one, and uh I mean I'm curious, like some personal stuff. You've interviewed, uh I I'm sure there's the exact number and you and you probably know it, but uh a lot of traders and a lot of the best ones. Um are you friends with traders like in your personal life? Like is this this bit where like comedians don't like to hang out with comedians and whatnot?

SPEAKER_01 7:24

Yeah, no, I I I I I no I'm not well there's um I can say off the top of my head. I mean, I'm friendly, but we don't not in touch with a number of traders um that I've interviewed, but but there's no no trader I interviewed that I'm in regular contact with. Somebody like Peter Brandt, I consider a friend, but we see each other only, you know, rarely. Um there's nobody that I am kind of in regular touch with. Um, but if if I would see someone like you mentioned Chris Camillo, yeah, uh last time I saw Chris or spoke to him, but you know, we're in occasional contact, and uh somebody like Jason Shapiro, occasional contact, but nobody has a regular friend.

SPEAKER_00 8:08

The Chris chapter is is so good. But you you know, you brought up Michael Marcus, and I want to ask you about that. So I I read your I think it's the first chapter um with Michael Marcus, and the book is like 37 years old or something like this. And there's this excerpt in there where he talks about, I think it was 1989, he talks about how he had this kick where he's trading currency markets and he had to stop because they're 24-7 and he was losing money, he was waking up every two hours, it destroyed his marriage. Like it was like destroying his life trading these 24-hour markets. And this is you know, 30 something years ago, and then fast forward to 2026. Like the way that I learned to I learned to trade in crypto is to only 24-7. Like that's the way that it is, and then there's all these new platforms and and assets that are coming out, you know, um, perps to to trade tokenized stocks where all markets are are going this direction, 24-7. And so it just was like funny to see back then to it like playing out as maybe being pushed forward as the new norm. Like, can you talk a little about a little bit about the evolution of markets from when you wrote that first book to where we are right now?

SPEAKER_01 9:23

Yeah, there was a lot of tremendous changes. So uh let's let's begin with when I wrote the book. Uh you know, uh Marcus, we had pits in the future, you know, futures, and uh, you know, even uh there was no electronic trading. I mean it's not so uh this is completely pre-electronic, and of course now it's all virtually all electronic. So that's a certainly a huge change. Um the original book, uh well, the the original book was written post the advent of the beginning years of the of the PC, but the people who I were interviewing had trading careers that spanned well before the advent of PCs. So you're talking about a completely different age in that respect. You know, now not only have PCs, you've got supercomputers, you've got multi multiple quant firms with hundreds of quant uh of PhD mathematicians, physicists working on uh strategies and um supercomputing power, AI, of course, yeah becoming more and more dominant. So the technology change, which has affected everything, uh certainly has affected the markets. And the the biggest change is are all these techno technology innovations.

SPEAKER_00 10:48

Can you like do you think it's more difficult now to trade with this overwhelming level of access and information? The idea that 24-7 we're on Twitter, there's head, you know, call it headline terrorism coming at you every second. Like, do you think it's more difficult to for these traders to operate in this new era?

SPEAKER_01 11:12

Um, well, first of all, uh the one one positive thing is that uh traders have access to virtually anything right now.

SPEAKER_00 11:21

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 11:21

So all the data, all the I mean, back back in my early days, uh, my career, uh, there were there were no like that was well. My my own career goes back to the early 70s, but uh well, well before PCs. Uh so no chart screens. I go back to the first firm I worked for, had that giant giant board with changing prices, and it would click every time the price changed. And so it was kind of a different world. And getting charts, you basically got a weekly printed chart. Uh, you had to make special efforts to get a quick delivery over the weekend, and then you would kind of have to by hand, you know, keep it up on a daily basis. Forget intraday, you know, even even daily was a stretch. Uh, and that was uh on manual uh and hard paper, not on screen. So kind of uh uh in that sense, uh nowadays you've got uh all the data, all all the screens uh that you need, uh all that all the indicators if that's what you're into. And so there's a lot more, and of course, all the fundamental information. And there are people who uh other people in this new book who kind of do things that couldn't have done without access to PCs and the information they provide. So uh in that sense, it's kind of leveled the field somewhat. But on the other hand, as I mentioned, you have giant firms with uh amazing quant power competing. Uh at the end of the at the end of the whole thing, though, uh I'm left with one fact, and that is I am finding traders for, let's say, for this newest book, and was true also in the book I did, the last one, Unknown Market Wizards back in 2020. Um, in both cases, I found traders whose track records were as good as any of any of the more famous wizards that I interviewed back uh uh well in the beginning of the late 80s. So uh despite what you would think all this more competition and greater efficiency, uh apparently there's enough left, uh enough ways left for some people to to be able to achieve incredible success.

SPEAKER_00 13:36

When did the bucket shop era like disappear?

SPEAKER_01 13:40

I don't know. I mean that's uh um I think probably uh after maybe after the 29 crash, but I'm not sure. Um I'm there were all sorts of reforms that came after that. I would assume maybe but bucket shops would have been in that uh in that uh grouping, uh although I I don't uh remember for sure. Of course, the book like Reminiscences that you talk about, um that that wasn't the bucket shop era. The interesting thing is, even though it's complete anachronism, um it's that book is still relevant. It was was relevant when I read it 30, 40 years ago, uh actually 40 years ago, I guess, and it's still relevant today, and was kind of in a way inspirational because when I read it, I was struck by how relevant this book, written in a different era, still was to the current world of trading. And the reason for that is because it captures important psychological aspects of trading, and psych human psychology doesn't change, uh, so it remains relevant. And then my own goal when I wrote the first wizard's book was to hopefully write something that uh was still relevant 40 years from then, which I guess, or 60 years, or 65 years, which was the case when 65 years after I had read uh Reminiscences.

SPEAKER_00 15:07

65 years is unbelievable. There okay, so I like reading all like your old interviews. Also, I'm obsessed with the pits, but I will do that as like a different I'll go to that hell later. There's this you know what when I read some of these old interviews like Paul Tudor Jones and Stanley Druckenmiller, I so I sort of came up in this era where people are clicking a lot in and out of trades, like often, all the time. The crypto era, 20, like I I'm just like very familiar with all day, everyday, sort of this like very sped up version. And when I read some of these old, these older interviews, it feels like these traders talk about their trades as almost like the trade of the decade, like the 80s was like 87, and they talk about like the couple defining trades of that decade, and it sort of paints this picture that I don't know if this is true or not, but in like 1980, the 70s, it was a lot slower, more calculated, and they were taking less positions. Is this like a is that accurate? Has that evolved?

SPEAKER_01 16:14

Yeah, it's accurate because of a simple reason. Uh, as we mentioned, like the advent of the PC, there were no and data even the uh I guess intraday data might have been available in some form, and maybe some sophisticated firm. Well, there weren't sophisticated firms back in the in those days. Uh well, maybe by the 80s, but not late 80s, but not in the 70s. So um the data just wasn't there, or if it was there, it might have been only I very isolated entities that had it. And uh so the you you had nothing to trade, you only had daily data. You didn't have intraday data. So once you get intraday data, you open up the possibility of much quicker trading. And of course, that evolved to the point that nowadays you have uh quite a number of prop shops that are doing only day trading. And in fact, two of the traders in this book uh began in uh one is still one is still with a prop shop, although I think they give him leeway to um, not I think they do give him leeway to hold positions longer. Um, and the other trader basically left because he eventually wanted, saw that there was more opportunity going longer term beyond day trading. And and even though he had been very successful, day trading wanted to expand to uh to trading on longer time horizons. So uh, but anyway, that's the answer why why uh yeah, uh there is a lot more quick trading. And and some traders in this book, uh well, one still trades very short term. One once one trader in the book, uh he half an hour would be a long-term position. And if a trade's not working, two minutes would be the long term.

SPEAKER_00 18:02

It's crazy. I know uh Lucas is the one I know the most because he's uh he's on Twitter. I've been following him for a long time. Uh his story is nuts. On the uh I guess the opposite of the slower paced, long horizon, mellow traders like a Paul Tudor Jones. I was uh I was at the Knicks game yesterday, and they were doing the celebrity row big screen jumbo tron of the show Taylor Swift, and right behind it, right behind Taylor Swift is Paul Tudor Jones on the phone, like yelling at someone. And you did okay, so you wrote the chapter with Paul Tudor Jones, yeah, and in the chapter, like the market was open. And before I read your chapter, I there's this there's this like really niche Paul Tudor Jones movie called Trader. Yeah, on you've seen it before.

SPEAKER_01 18:53

Yeah, I've seen it, and I think if I if I know this correctly, I believe he tried to buy up and burn all copies.

SPEAKER_00 19:00

He tried so there, yes, I'm trying to get a copy right now. Nobody can can find it.

SPEAKER_01 19:05

There's one that sold in eBay like I think they did a good job of destroying copies.

SPEAKER_00 19:08

There was someone on eBay like 15 years ago that sold one for like $2,000. I'm trying to track it down, but it's on YouTube. I hope he doesn't get it. I downloaded it. I hope he doesn't get it removed. But it's like an hour long, and I mean he's nuts, like he's screaming and he's calling in orders. He's in the middle of an interview, he's calling, then he puts the shoes on, he has like the special tennis shoes, and he like yeah, he just like does the whole it feels very modern, right? Where it in like classic pits where he's screaming and he's barking at people. And so you interviewed him in person, yeah, um, while the market was open.

SPEAKER_01 19:43

Yeah, while he's doing all that. So where I'm interviewing him and he's shouting out, you know, buy 300 subcrude, you know, sell 200, you know, and he has phones in those days. He had um, you know, we had the pits and he had phones to each of the major pits, and so he'd be shouting orders uh to the various pits while we were we were doing this interview, you know. And I I had I had asked him, look, uh, we can do this after the market closes, because I knew it would be better to do it that way. But uh no, I said, come, you know, come whenever it was, one o'clock or whatever the time was. And I did. And so we had the interview while he's doing all this trading at the same time. And people are bringing him in messages, phones are ringing, kind of bed long. Um, but that's kind of uh kind of at least at that in those days, that was the way he traded.

SPEAKER_00 20:34

Is he focused during this? Like he's locked in on your interview.

SPEAKER_01 20:37

Yeah, I oh yeah, yeah. He yeah, I think he's a multitasker in that sense.

SPEAKER_00 20:41

Yeah, you also gave this, you wrote this thing. Um, I just read it, so I it's like fresh in my mind that he was like super paranoid about answering your questions, and he was giving you yeah, like bizarre. What was that like a normal thing?

SPEAKER_01 20:58

No, he was well, he he was paranoid. Uh um, I believe, and this is a long time since I wrote the I believe because he was bearish. I think he was looking. Um no, I mean this was uh I interviewed him was post the uh crash uh of 87. Um but he was he was paranoid, I forget what we why uh about saying something that uh uh you know the he could be maybe it it must have been something about being short or uh thinking, you know, planning to be short because uh shorts are always scapegoats. I if I remember correctly, that might have been what it was, but I don't remember for sure. If you read it recently, you probably know better better than I do.

SPEAKER_00 21:42

I think I think he was bare I was confused though, because I'm like, you know, thinking how long it's gonna take for this thing to get published. It's like it's not getting broadcasted to the world in in a week or so. But I I have a question for you on the older top trader topic, which is like, okay, I'm a big NBA fan, and in the modern era of Of the musket ball, there's this this like running bit on the internet, which is the like we're done with the 90s. And so the whole bit is like the younger generation will upload footage and clips of the 80s players and the 90s players, and compare them to the Steph Curry's and the LeBron's, and talk about how they don't look that skilled, the game is slower, they don't look that athletic, they don't look that good. The mummern they shoot better, they're quicker, they handle it better, they move better. And it's always this like, you know, it's like the Le Bruman over Jordan argument. And so I'm curious, like these 80s, 70s, like 90s legends of traders, the pole tutor drones, like and then some of them are still going and doing great, but maybe some of the ones that stopped in the 80s or like peaked in the 80s, peaked in the 70s. Could you throw these guys in the modern era of 24/7 and 100 screens and information coming at you at all times? And could they perform equally as well in the modern era? Better, worse? Like, how do you stack up modern era versus old era?

SPEAKER_01 23:06

Yeah, I so I I I think it's really a personality question. So, you know, none of those traders, they wouldn't, even if they were in an era like the modern one where you can trade, you know, in seconds if you want to, they that's not their style. They wouldn't do that. Uh, you know, Draken Miller, uh, I mean, he still trades his own account, uh, I guess. And uh um, but he doesn't trade that way. I mean, uh he's he he still probably trades the same way he always traded, which was to have uh fundamental ideas that he believes strongly in. And then he'll use he does look at charts and stuff like that for timing purposes and for risk for risk management purposes, but his style hasn't changed. And so I think every person develops a style that that's that's comfortable to them. And by definition, all the traders in my early books uh were in an era where where you couldn't trade the you know in that super fast fashion during their main part of their trading career, and uh therefore they wouldn't have that wouldn't have been one of the options. Uh uh so they all developed styles that were not like that. So there were no traders that are comparable uh at that you know in that uh first book.

SPEAKER_00 24:30

The first time I ever heard Stanley Jacob talk was like I mean, I'm not afraid to say it, it was like a year ago, and it was in that I think a Morgan Stanley interview. And I went back and I was reading your chapter, so I like kind of like got the front dated, read all the lore, and then I read your chapter, and he's like 33 in your interview. And so he had from the way I understand it, when you when you had drunk, he had done incredibly well, and it was after all the 87 stuff, and he done very, very, very well, but I don't think that he was like, you know, as regarded as he is right now, as sort of I don't know, I kind of look at him as the GOAT, at least as I understand it. Did you know at the time when you were speaking to him at 30s, 33, 35, whatever, that he just had it at a level that maybe some of the other guys didn't?

SPEAKER_01 25:22

No, I mean, I uh uh you know, I thought he did like other people I interviewed. Um so he he had enough, everybody by the time I interview these people, they've had enough success. Yeah they will they they may not be as may not have been as big as they uh are later years, like somebody like Covner or Jones or Draken Miller because they had continued on through their whole career. Uh, but they had still established uh records uh of 10 years plus. So uh it wasn't nobody was a flash in the back. Although Paul was an exception. I I interviewed Paul when his track record was only about, I think, five years old. Uh, but he had like five years of uh of 100% three-digit returns, and you know that was good enough.

SPEAKER_00 26:14

You feel pressure when you interview somebody that your stamp is gonna live like you you you solidify people pretty strongly when you interview them in the book.

SPEAKER_01 26:26

Solidify in what way?

SPEAKER_00 26:28

As in they were a wizard in the market wizards, and so if they go on to do incredible, it's like of course, and then if they go on to do really poorly, that wasn't true in the first when I wrote the first market wizard book, it was just another book, right?

SPEAKER_01 26:42

So uh, you know, over over time as I've done more of these books, and uh uh many of these traders kind of became very famous, more famous, and so I guess that that occurred. Uh and I I think well nowadays, or even the last couple of books I've done, the Marco Wizard books, uh it's it's almost unusual for me, uh almost unheard of, I would say, to interview somebody who hasn't already read my books and uh some of my books. And in many cases, I interview people who got into the business because they read my books. So it's come full circle.

SPEAKER_00 27:20

It has come full circle. You know, one of the things you talk about a lot, and you mentioned it earlier, is like, okay, so we talk about this idea of like edge decay. I've I feel like I've looked at a bunch of traders and they sort of represent a specific era, right? Like, you know, this guy dominated the 2020 cycle, and then five years later the game has changed a little bit, and they're just not doing as well. Um, or they were really good for like one regime or at one specific time and place. So I'm curious, how do you think of like eras in trade in traders and markets? And why is it the case that a specific trader will dominate one era and then not be able to repeat the success that they had in future markets?

SPEAKER_01 28:08

Basically, uh depending on the approach, but many approaches will only work in certain certain market environments. So um, I mean, I just think in the current book, there's uh one trader who's um kind of does phenomenal in 2021, but continues to use the same approach in 2022, and it's disastrous because the market has changed. So um, so a lot of it has to do with the changed market environment. And um what I'm I'm I'm always I'm trying to find people who will sort of more than survive, who will do well or it will still be around or still continue to to move up an equity through different environments. That's what I'm trying to do, and um it not always the case, but uh hopefully most times it is.

SPEAKER_00 29:07

Yeah, make it makes sense. And uh, you know, like I've always when I first started trading, I I feel like one of the most intimidating aspects of it is you know, everyone talks about edge, edge, edge. This word gets used so much, edge, edge, as. And I think I spent a lot of time afraid to take positions because I felt as if I needed to have this like mythical, def definitive edge that I could point at and say, I, you know, I'm guaranteed to be right or I'm guaranteed to win in this spot because I know blank that everybody else doesn't know. Even if you're like hundreds of traders, how do you think about that idea of edge, but then more specifically, like how definitive it is, like how tangible is it for specific people versus others?

SPEAKER_01 29:54

Yeah, so yeah, there has to be some edge because otherwise trading is like gambling because uh, you know, market can go up and go down, right? Um, and if uh there's no reason anybody would be right unless they have some approach that is better than random. Uh, and everybody's got transaction costs. Even even if commissions are zero, there's still transaction costs. Um, so because of slippage in the trade, uh both getting in and getting out. So over time you'll bleed transaction costs if you have no edge. So you need some sort of an edge. Now, an edge edge doesn't mean that you're right all the time or even right. In fact, most traders, most of the traders I interview are wrong more than half the time. And in many cases, we're wrong more than 70% of the time. The difference is when they're right, they make a lot more than they lose when they're wrong. In almost all cases, all of them, not all. So um now, as far as what an edge is, it it varies, it depends. It's um uh so take let me think of a few examples from this book. So one trader who has not and all these traders, I should say, in in this next generation, Marco, where's this next next generation? All the traders are solo traders. These are these are guys trading in their own own home, you know, they're not managing money, they're not in a firm. Uh, a couple of them, yeah, are yeah, one of them is with a prop firm, but he's still trading on his own. So um you think one one of them who has not had a losing month, uh literally, uh, is he's like super became super expert on merger arm, kind of knows every nuance about it. And so he's kind of developed a methodology where he he doesn't look, I mean, look, he has losing days, but he has no losing months. Now he he doesn't make a ton of money, but he earns a decent living trading because you know every his trading is basically his monthly income. So his edge is his knowledge and expertise in that area of merger are superior to the general market. For example, like you mentioned, one example, uh uh a merger deal comes out and the market rallies, and he knows that that particular company is domiciled in Maryland instead of Delaware. Now that would mean nothing to just virtually the entire universe, except he knows that if it's in Delaware, the merger is much more likely to go through. And in Maryland, it's easy for the company to block it if it wants to. So he has that piece of information, not because he's got inside information, he's just done so much research, he knows all this stuff. So that's an example of an edge.

SPEAKER_00 32:53

He never had a losing month.

SPEAKER_01 32:56

What's that?

SPEAKER_00 32:57

He's never had a losing month.

SPEAKER_01 32:59

Literally.

SPEAKER_00 33:00

Do you are you like numb to these unbelievable metrics and stats and audits that you see at this at this stage?

SPEAKER_01 33:08

Yeah, I'm I'm numb in the sense that I've interviewed a lot of people that have done it. Like in this book in particular, you know, you would think that it'd be very hard to find people with extraordinary records, given all the competition and efficiency out there. But there are two two two guys in this book who uh one uh who took um who kind of uh went up to there. At the last I've I've communicated with them, they were both near half a billion dollars. Uh one started with 40,000, the other had worked for firms and had accumulated several million before he went on his own and then turned that into half a billion. But that's still but take the guy who took 40,000 40,000 into half a billion. That's pretty extraordinary.

SPEAKER_00 33:54

Do you believe this idea that uh a trader could have like an intuitive edge? Like, you know, we call it the ball tingle, that there's no way to define it. They could define it if they tried, but they just yeah, like the gut feeling actually is a thing that works for traders. I I do believe that. I do believe it.

SPEAKER_01 34:11

I've seen it, and and it's true. Uh um, and they develop now gut feel and intuition, these things are kind of misunderstood. What they really are, we're talking about traders who like have been enmeshed in the markets for decades, and or you know, uh in these this group is younger, so maybe not multiple decades, but a decade or longer. And um they've kind of devoted like uh some of the hours they keep in terms of trading and research is like mind-bogglings. So they've if you spend that much uh exposure to the mark to anything, and you have some sort of and they have a passion for it, that's important. They have a passion for it. So they not only uh have this passion, but they then spend all this time. And when you combine those things, you get a lot of experience. And you know, by experience, tens of thousands, hundreds of thousands of instances. Now that's not all recallable in the conscious mind, but what I think really goes on is they've seen so many things that when something similar is kind of lining up, they may not say, Oh, this is like XYZ or whatever, but somewhere in their subconscious that ticks, oh, this is just like that other situation, and that's what the intuition is. So I would I would term it intuition is subconscious experience.

SPEAKER_00 35:45

You said you and you've seen it. I mean, you've seen it probably many times.

SPEAKER_01 35:49

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 35:51

Wow. How okay? I've I'm obsessed with uh I'm obsessed with the pits. Okay, that Paul Tudor Jones movie was one of my favorite favorites ever. I just missed the era. Okay, I missed the era. I was born, I was born too late. How different so you were, I mean, you did some of these interviews. I mean, you you you lived it, but you also did some interviews live in the pits as well.

SPEAKER_01 36:10

How different I didn't do with the pit, but I did I did interviews with traders who were pit traders. Uh uh somebody like Tom Baldwin, who was at the time the largest single trader in the T-Bond pit, you know. The largest. So I did interview them in the pit, but I okay, okay, okay. And in the Paul Judah-Jones chapter, there's a great story in there that occurs, you know, what is worst trade ever, which was which with the background, you know, the story is in the background of the pit.

SPEAKER_00 36:44

What how different is it in that era when you are actually like boots on the ground trading that live? Like also tell that story as well. I don't mean to ask you. Tell tell the story first, and I'll ask the question.

SPEAKER_01 36:57

Yeah, well, it's a great story. It's a great story for many reasons. But anyway, so Paul's down in the cotton floor, and uh the uh he's trading cotton, you know, uh the cotton market. And uh just for background for your listeners, uh cotton, the old crop, the last uh old crop month is July, and then October is kind of the beginning of the new crop. And uh July, because it's the last of the old crop, and it'll last this the stocks that are deliverable uh are kind of an important effect, can be an important factor. And what the market had done in that particular situation was for many months it'd be going after a decline, it'd be going sideways. And then one day it breaks to a new low and bounces right back in. Now, for those of your listeners who are chart-oriented, and uh this is the kind of thing I've written about, um, not so much in a market. Well, I've written in Mark Wizard's books as well as some analytical books, but when a market kind of breaks to a new low and then rallies right back, uh that often could be a bottom, uh call the bear trap. And so Paul kind of sees that action, and the idea is when it finally breaks new lows, takes out those stops, that sort of wipes out the all the you know, all the weak holders, and then the market is can rally from there. So that's the that's the underlying premise. And it happens more often and it happens better than 50% of the time, probably. But anyway, so he sees this and he says, okay, it's a bottom. And he he buys, he he he sh has an order go in for a large number of contracts, which is more than he should buy given the amount of money he's managing, it represents a very large portion of his cap, you know, of his investment. And uh and at that same moment, from across the pit, a broker flies across everybody else with his hands raised, saying sold. And that broker is the broker for the cotton merchant who owns most of the deliverable supply. And in that second, Paul knows he's dead, the rest of the pit knows he's dead. And he tries to sell some, but within seconds, the market locks limit down. And it doesn't train for the next few days. Every day it opens limit down. And by the time he can get out, he's like lost 65% of his money, uh, of his investor money, his money, his investor money. And he came to the brink of quitting the business. And and that was that was the incident that instilled money management, you know. After that, uh, he kind of questions all everything about it and whether he would even continue in the business and and said, Why am I making my life uh why do I why why do I put myself in this position? Uh why don't I make my life more matter of pleasure than pain? And uh from that point on sort of became uh uh almost religious about money management.

SPEAKER_00 39:56

Do you think somebody like that could ever actually quit?

SPEAKER_01 40:00

Yeah, uh well he, I mean, I have no reason I he said that he came very close to quitting. Um what I do encounter in in every book really, and especially in this last book and in the first Marcus's book, is um people failing multiple times early on before they finally succeed. And it is a quality of a number of these traders that they continue on when most people would long have quit.

SPEAKER_00 40:32

It just feels like the temperament. Like, how how would I I mean I've thought about it, like how would I what because we people always ask like what's what's the number, right? And I would imagine, I mean, you you interview some guys that have extraordinary returns, and it's like, why are you still going? Are you made a hundred million, 250, a billion dollars? Like, why are you like why are they still going? Why are you still going after it?

SPEAKER_01 40:51

And and that's a great question. And uh, in fact, in this book, uh uh some of these people who've made a hundred million or several hundred million or whatever, uh, are actually questioning that they they're actually, you know, uh one uh um is kind of struggles with that question of uh wanting to quit and certainly paring down this trading. Uh in fact, uh and two of them are at that stage where they've sort of wanted to quit, but are still trading uh uh they can't give it up totally, uh, but do want to they've they've moved on to do other things and do recognize that hey, is this what I do I really want to do this for the rest of my life full time? And so that question does occur to people. It's it's never the money. I mean, once you get once you get certainly once you get beyond 100 million, what's the point, right? Uh it's not the money.

SPEAKER_00 41:53

Wow. Would you tell the Paul Teter Jones story and and the guy comes swooping across with the soul? Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 42:00

Um that's a bit of color you can't get in in electronic trading.

SPEAKER_00 42:06

No, you can't. How how uh like what's the scene like? Like so everybody knows what everybody's in generally. Uh like if you know, if you're taking super public positions, like people around you are aware of like, you know, Paul is in this, or like this guy just sold. Like, what is how does the scene work as far as knowing who's in what and and what they're they're trading?

SPEAKER_01 42:27

Well, I mean, you know, back in the early days, uh, I mean, people knew, like in this case, who the broker is a broker for, and and that was a good example of how there's some information. Also, uh uh people talk about uh see in an early first Marker Wizard's book. I think there were a couple of tru people I interviewed that talked about just the sound of the pit and how it would sometimes grow when crescendo was itself kind of a signal, so it was like a living, breathing thing, and and just the visceral uh element of being there and hearing the sound change. Uh it was itself a signal. Oh my god.

SPEAKER_00 43:09

Yeah because you could hear like you have prices going up and it's getting louder, there's like strength behind the movie.

SPEAKER_01 43:16

You could yeah, you could you could tell in the noise level and a sudden a sudden shift in the noise level that something was going on.

SPEAKER_00 43:27

Do you think guys like Paul, like because you know they talk about Paul as the like macho gunslinger and he's in there screaming? Do you think it's an enhancer to like be in that environment, boots on the ground in the pit with his style, or is it like a distraction?

SPEAKER_01 43:44

No, I mean it depends, it depends for whom. In fact, Michael Marcus uh tried to be uh tried to be a uh uh trade from the floor, but he was a very shy, quiet guy, and he had trouble, you know, he anybody hearing him or see. You know, like so it he could he couldn't function in that environment.

SPEAKER_00 44:04

He was your first boss, or you you worked with him at your at your Marcus.

SPEAKER_01 44:10

This is kind of an interesting, and and lots of, you know, I'm a kind of believer that life is very heavily influenced by by fortune, uh, good and bad. And uh a lot of what happens to us is not because of what we necessarily do, but just of chance. So it so happened that my first job out of graduate school was this analyst position. And the day I came in for my first day, the fellow cleaning out his desk and leaving to become, in quotes, a trader was Michael Marcus. And so we chatted a little bit, and he at that in those days was still staying in New York. And so we ended up kind of getting together, you know, every month or two or so for lunch and spoke and communicated. And then he went out to Malibu uh as a trader, and uh that's why I eventually interviewed him at that those days. Uh, but anyway, so that was I kind of knew him just by that chance luck. Now, through Michael, he told me about at Sakota, who he considered was the best trader he knew, and this coming from somebody who in those days had turned 30,000 into 80 million, so you kind of pay attention. So he led me to Sakota, and uh, and then the book, of course, ended up being uh because I I think because I know and also Marcus hired Bruce Coven. There you go, three three people so uh in that book. So uh uh and and so a core element of that first book was due that I by chance I met Michael Marcus on the day I came in for my first day of work. So a lot of luck in that.

SPEAKER_00 45:52

The last thing I've read before I got on here today was the Ed Sakota chapter. And in the I don't know, in the very beginning, you tell the story that you uh you had a time crunch, you only had a couple hours, and he tells you, like I knew you were gonna say the whole day, you say the whole day, and you're sitting down talking to him five minutes in, and he's like, How many minutes fast is your watch? And you're like, Yeah, yeah, what like I you know, I just met this guy an hour ago, and that's like a thing that I've done for a while is keep the fast watch, and he just like snipes it. Are you like have you been like intimidated of some of these guys that you go to their house?

SPEAKER_01 46:28

Not intimidated, but I I mean I I tell that in the book because he's a very perceptive guy, and sort of in the first few minutes of like, well, it's just a phone conversation, and then and in our early conversation in person, he kind of he kind of pegged me for and I I you know, I I am a tech book guy who's kind of runs just like late, not late, but just like to the last second, sort of make every uh deadline every meeting uh exciting. You know, if you get to get there in time, I don't know. Uh so but he he assessed that on me. And uh um, yeah, so uh no, as far as intimidation, I I recognize that look, I am uh, well, first of all, forget about on a trading side. I mean, a trading side, I never considered myself in the same ballpark, and I'm not I don't consider myself per se a trader. Uh and uh so in that sense I recognize, hey, it's just like uh if I you're writing a sports book and you're you're interviewing sports people, you know, obviously it doesn't mean that you're in the same league, right? Because, you know, because you're interviewing sports sports stars. Uh so the same thing. Uh and yeah, that but the the intimidation, if there were going to be any, would be on the intellectual side, where you know I'm not a dumb guy, but I'm not a genius like some of the people I've interviewed. And uh, but I still feel but I've never been intimidated. I kind of feel that I I'm always uh I can always hold the same level of conversation.

SPEAKER_00 47:59

He turned 30,000 to 80 million. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 48:04

This is like And that's oh, and and that's with that's with the company he was with uh this early uh trading firm called Commodities Corp. Uh, which was one of the very very, very early trading firms uh back in the 70s and uh into the 80s. And uh they were taking out I think 20 a year for expenses. Whoa, so he so he he did that with 20 coming out every year.

SPEAKER_00 48:33

Whoa. That and that's Bruce, Michael Marcus, and Ed Commodities Corporation.

SPEAKER_01 48:40

What's that? The Commodities Corporation, yeah. Yeah, that was the name of the firm.

SPEAKER_00 48:44

They wrote about it in uh More Money Than God, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 48:47

Yeah, yeah, it's probably in there too. Yeah, so so more money than God and me through my books, we cover, we end up obviously covering a lot of the same territory in some cases, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 48:57

Okay, this is kind of like a cliche, but I have to ask it. I'm sure you it's probably the most asked question you ever get, but like who who is your Mount Rushmore of like pound for pound, the best traders that you think stack up against anybody? Like if you had to pick like four or five.

SPEAKER_01 49:12

It's it's it's hard to say best because um you know there people excel in in different ways. Uh so uh I mean, kind of for for longevity and pure return to risk power, somebody like Ed Thorpe, who uh ran two hedge funds, but just take the first hedge fund, 19 years, three losing months, each of those losing months less than one percent. That's kind of like mind-boggling. Um, the the guys in this book who kind of took a small sum of money and made a half billion, that's mind-boggling. I mean, there are a lot of the and and in every book, the in every book there's there's people who who just have extraordinary uh, you know, Marcus uh mentioned the first that we mentioned uh from the first book, and um and then you know uh you know somebody like Stan Drockenmiller who who kind of goes 30 years with approximately 30 percent a year. So they all in their own ways, the uh there are a lot of traders that are uh spectacular.

SPEAKER_00 50:24

Who do you think had the highest peak, like the highest prime over like a couple year period the hottest like the the brightest peak, like who had the best prime of like even if it was a couple years, like forget longevity, forget down years, like a couple year era where it was just like unlike anything you've ever seen.

SPEAKER_01 50:44

Well, I wouldn't say unlike anything I've ever seen because again, in every book you've seen it, some traders who have that, right? So yeah.

SPEAKER_00 50:55

Wow. Um, okay, one more one more thing I want to ask you about is you talk there's a couple extra, I forget which book it's in, but you talk about this uh efficient market theory. Yeah, and you put this quote in there. I don't know if it's I'm gonna mess it up. I don't know if it's exactly true. Where the equit like the chance of the 1987 Black Monday is equivalent to picking a random atom out of the universe and then spinning around, closing your eyes, and picking the same atom a second time, right? Which is crazy. Do you think as time goes on and um like digital trading advances, math advances, AI advances, the Kwan HFT advances, we get closer to this idea of like efficient markets? Can it ever actually be reached?

SPEAKER_01 51:42

Well, uh I would have thought so. And if you had asked me, uh you know, maybe 10 years ago, I said no, ultimately, but um like here we are, and I just did this book and still have the most extraordinary records that I've encountered, or at least as as amazing as any I've encountered. So uh apparently we're not there, you know, and and these type of records don't happen by luck. I mean, sure, anybody can have a good three years, and especially in a bull market, and you know, that doesn't prove anything. But uh once you get decade-long plus records through bull and bear markets, and people have and and you you start talking about return risk statistics in some of these cases that are, you know, people say, Oh, the sharp ratio is above one. And I don't, by the way, I don't use the sharp ratio. Uh this is a different subject, yeah. But since everybody, most people are familiar with it, I'll talk in terms of the shop ratio. But people say, Oh, the sharp ratio is above one, that's a big deal. Uh, and um and the people that I interview in some of these books can have, well, if not the sharp ratio, but uh let's say return risk measures that are equivalent, but don't the default of the shop ratio is it penalizes big gains, which works against the people I interview. So, but if you have those return risk measures like an adjusted Sortino ratio that uh doesn't penalize big gains, then you just if you think of the terms of like one being oh above one is really good, we're talking about people of 10 or 15. They're like not even, they're not outliers, they're just like we're way beyond. It's it's if you're thinking in terms of the solar system, we're not people, we're not talking about people on Mars or Jupiter, we're talking about Pluto and beyond. You know, they're just completely off the scale in terms of return risk. So you don't get that by if the markets were efficient. So there, and I'm not finding, I didn't find the only nine people in the world who who have this. I mean, I this is just a these are people we came up with, and uh, and I'm sure there's tons of others that I don't know exist. Uh so yeah, I don't think the markets are there yet. And will AI get there? Um, well, I'm not even there, I don't think so, because there's a big difference in applying AI to things like sciences uh versus to trading, because when you're dealing with science, any science, physics, biology, whatever, uh, you're talking about things like drug development or things of that nature. Um, yeah, a uh or or weather forecasting, uh, things of that nature, you're dealing with physical properties, and while they may be something like weather forecasting, particularly the longer term, is extraordinarily complex. Uh, and while it is that has that complexity, the physical laws are all fixed. They don't change. All physical laws uh stay the same, same for biology. I mean, maybe biology evolves, but essentially in any point in time, biological uh um uh kind of reactions work the same way. So um uh whereas we're trading, it it you're not dealing with a set of facts. What in trading, yeah, sometimes uh let's say you get a bullish on you get an unemployment report that is the more employment than expected. It's better, it's better than expected. Sometimes it's bullish for the for the stock market, sometimes it's bearish. And literally complete opposite. So you see both cases. So the fact that you can do you can do the same thing for almost any type of input. And so what an input means for how the market will react is always changing, and it's not a fixed law. And I think that it introduces a level beyond complexity. It's it's it's it's not the complexity so much as it is the inability to define what the relationships are. So I think that will hold back AI from solve quotation, solving the market uh in a way as well. But uh, you know, if we apply it to anything that is science related, with enough learning, enough power, it can break things that uh uh break uh problems and come up with solutions that would have been uh unreachable otherwise. But I think trading is different.

SPEAKER_00 56:20

It's crazy, even in Reminis's Jesse Livermore, the conclusion is that he doesn't think it's possible to beat the market over a prolonged time. Like that was the conclusion all the way back then, which is Well, no.

SPEAKER_01 56:33

Well, he had a problem, you know, Livermore is one of the greatest traders of all time. And I think in uh in terms of today's dollars, I think he made billions several times. So but he also lost it. And um, so he had a problem with risk as as great a trader as he was, he had a big problem with risk management. Uh he may have had it for certain for runs, but then he somehow always blew it. Uh and uh so he made the fortune, lost it, made a fortune, lost it. Uh so it he he if he had if he was um rigorous throughout on risk management, no, I think he would have he would have been successful throughout. It's just that, and it happened, you know, I I saw it in this in every book I write, it happens at least sometimes, even to great traders. And in this book, the trader I mentioned, who uh who turned 40,000 into half a billion, uh it there were a couple of instances along the way where he broke his own rules and took giant losses. And interestingly, after we had finished the chapter, I get an email from him saying, Look, I want to be up front. I don't want people to uh think I'm just kind of touting my own phone. I just had my worst loss ever. And we had another follow-up interview on that worst loss ever. And that one, I think, finally gave religion, and he instituted automatic, uh, automatic uh controls to prevent himself from doing that again. And Livermore could have presumably have done the same thing. So, no, I I think it is possible to be successful throughout. And some of like Drocken Miller has been for a long career, and you know, other people, you know, many other people as well.

SPEAKER_00 58:19

Why don't you like the sharp ratio? Is it because it penalizes the big gains?

SPEAKER_01 58:24

Yeah, yeah. So the sharp ratio, without getting into the to the math of it, uh, bottom line, it's it's return over standard deviation, which is a measure of volatility. And actually, that's a whole different subject because volatility itself is not necessarily a good measure of risk, although it can be strongly correlated many times. But in any case, it penalizes volatility. Now, that what that means is I've interviewed traders whose records look like lose 3%, lose 2%, lose 4%, lose 1%, make 50%, you know, you know, can that that sharp ratio will hate that record. It will super penalize it. But um and if you take a track record where um, you know, you could have uh every month it changes by not that much, but you get this period where uh like well, a sharp ratio, let's say, um uh of a market where uh like a bear market in stocks, where it's going down, going down. Uh it's it's it's you can have a huge cumulative loss, and it's may not even show up as bad on the risk penalization as somebody who has a giant uh return. So I don't like the sharp ratio because it penalizes upside volatility the same as downside volatility. And I've never met an investor who who felt uncomfortable or complained that if they made too much money, you know, who called or invested with a manager and he made a huge return, they called to complain about the volatility.

SPEAKER_00 1:00:04

Never happens. What measurements do you like the most outside of like pure?

SPEAKER_01 1:00:09

Okay, so there's two. I personally use two. Uh one is the Sortino ratio, which is the return over it's similar to the shark, but it only uses it only uses down months. So uh, and I should say here that virtually everybody calculates it wrong because they while it the statistic only uses losing months, but uh the typical way most services report it is they include all months, which makes it very biased, which means that the Sortino will always end up looking better than the uh sharp, even for traders whose returns are even when their losses are worse than their worst losses are worse than their best gains, uh, because of this, they're only using half the data to dilute to uh dilute the return. So uh the way I do it is without getting into the math, if you if you multiply the way most people, I call it the adjusted sortino, if you multiply the way most people report it, if you multiply that by the square root of two, it then becomes comparable to the sharp ratio without the bias, without this uh penalization of upside volatility. And then I have a measure which I kind of use my which I I don't know if anybody used it before or whatever. I've been using it for decades now, I guess. Uh, and I wrote about it decades ago, but it's called a gain to pain ratio. And it's simply uh the sum of you can do it on monthly data, you can use it on daily data, but let's say monthly data, you sum all the returns, and then you divide it by the sum of all the losses, the absolute value of all the losses. And so that statistic penalizes every every loss you have, sort of diminishes your statistic, uh, but only the losses. And if you have a lot of losses, you know, then then it'll show up in that uh in that uh denominator. So it's very simple, just the the sum of all the returns divided by this this the absolute value of the sum of the losses.

SPEAKER_00 1:02:22

I'm gonna have to try that. Thank you. How much in your day-to-day life are you thinking about markets if you're not working on books?

SPEAKER_01 1:02:29

Yeah, so really it depends. So ironically, the last few months, uh or maybe even since January, I've been yeah, normally I don't I don't trade a lot, but the last few months I've been trading more than more than typical. Um so it's just if I get involved in trading and I don't have other things that are I'm not writing another book right now and I've got more time, um, then I and I start trading, and if it's going okay, then I may be spending more of the time. So recently it's been every day uh because I've been trading. But uh dural long stretches were hardly at all. So it depends. Uh if I'm busy with other stuff, I may not be trading at all. And um if I hit a losing streak in trading, I'll stop. And I may want I'll walk away from it, and I may not trade at all for a while until I feel like going back to it again. And so it really depends when you catch me. It's uh it's it's not it's not a major point in my life. It's one element of my life.

SPEAKER_00 1:03:33

What are you trading right now?

SPEAKER_01 1:03:35

Well, uh right now I'm trading mostly. There were there are times where I traded almost all futures. And you know, recently I've been trading almost all all stocks, although at the moment uh now I'm I'm trading futures, uh equity futures, and pretty much as an easy way when I want to uh if I want to uh uh hedge or or to go net short. Uh so I've been trading that as well uh uh shorter term. Are you a bowl right now? No. I went from leverage long at the beginning of this week to now with my futures position that I put on today, I'm now I think net short. So I've gone from over 100% long to to to net short. But but that could, you know, literally that changed in a few days, right? That's a pretty big change. So what I'm saying now is good for today. Uh I kind of respond to what the markets do.

SPEAKER_00 1:04:37

One more markets question, and I'll give you a wrap. Is I'm curious what you think of this evolution where it seems like everybody is trading, things like Robin Hood and then the emergence of like crypto in these alternative markets where everybody's retail, everybody is trading, and it feels like a trend that's only going to accelerate. What what do you think about that?

SPEAKER_01 1:05:01

Yeah, I think there's more trading because there's something in our society, and also I think in the younger generation that is inclined, that is attracted to not just trading specifically, but the whole idea of betting on stuff, right? So prediction markets, you know, gotten huge. They'll get they'll get bigger. Uh that just seems to be part of our society at the current moment. This uh and sports betting. So there are three things, and they're all related. Uh the thing that's uh well, I guess they prediction markets are also people can't have an edge. They're very good about assessing uh assessing politics or or world developments or whatever. There are people who are particularly better at than other people. So, like trading, you can gain an edge. Uh is sports betting too. You know, my uh you you know, some people are really are are expert enough, they get a little bit of an edge in sports betting. Uh enough to cover the uh uh the bit air spread on that. Uh so um there are people that those are all kind of of one kind where it's possible to kind of come ahead if you have uh enough of an expertise as opposed to something which is just dumb like uh casino gambling uh which is just you know the odds the odds are against you the longer you play the sure you'll lose so I would distinguish that but those other types of uh endeavors have the possibility to come out ahead and apparently that's a great attraction to people have you ever thought about an alternative market wizards sports betting prediction markets uh no no no I I haven't um I guess I've got enough uh on the the trend and the trading side to me is more interesting yeah prediction markets are interesting on a sports I'm not enough of a sports fan uh I'm not a sports fan per se so that's not a natural attraction for me okay although I suppose somebody could do uh if there are some market wizards out there uh or sports wizards out there with long-term betting records so I guess that could be a book it won't be written by me though it won't be written maybe co-author in in your your horizon um but Jack we're over an hour you actually stayed an hour and seven minutes I am man thanks for coming on I'm a huge fan I know you you know you you probably get a lot from a lot of traders but you're a huge inspiration for myself and you're a huge inspiration for a lot of people that we uh watch the streams traders everywhere so on behalf of that entire community thank you for all that you've done and thank you for coming on the stream um we have the book here Market Wizards Next Generation I'll put your links everywhere Amazon everywhere they can buy it congratulations on the new book can you give us a sign off uh finance trading centric book recommendation list uh oh uh a book of uh uh you know actually you have a recommended uh books yes okay so I have to preface this by saying that uh oddly enough I don't yeah I rarely read trading books uh I don't read many trading books uh but I did I did put together a list uh on Quora uh of uh of books you know recommended books uh which are related to you know related to to trading uh in some cases trading but they're not per se what people think of as trading books necessarily but my list of recommended books uh which I did like five years ago or so and that's on Quora I guess if you put my name okay searchable but uh I'll go find it I guess I I suppose if you google Quora Jack Schwager recommended books uh maybe that that comment will pop up I'll go uh I'll hunt it down in and share it but then you can put it and you can put a link to it okay I'll put a link to it anything else you want to sign off with leave us with um yeah I'll I'll leave I'll leave your audience with with one thing that I think uh is absolutely a hundred percent correct advice and that is um the most important thing you can do is protect your capital and uh you have to be religious about having some sort of risk management to make sure that no single trade can take you out I'll leave you with that Paul Tudor Jones mode Jack you're an inspiration man thank you so much for coming on thank you so much for your time I look forward to uh getting through this book and have a great rest of your day man okay it was fun thanks all right by the goat man wow