Crypto is Moving Past Bitcoin - Syncracry Capital Interview

Ryan Watkins and DeFi Monk from Syncracy break down their great purification thesis: where the asset class is dispersing, why hype is escaping the pack, and how to value it when crypto-native FDV math falls apart. They cover the trader-to-investor era of crypto, the case for HODL again, Ryan's reluctant defense of ETH, where Bitcoin fits in the new paradigm, the institutional pipeline entering hyperliquid, and how to price regulatory risk. Closes on the state of liquid funds and why activist investing isn't worth the headache.

Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:00

Yo yo. Yo yo. He's above mellow right now, by the way.

SPEAKER_00 0:05

Yeah, he's above mellow right now.

SPEAKER_01 0:07

He's above mellow right now, man. Um, it's good to see you guys.

SPEAKER_02 0:11

Are you a Nixon?

SPEAKER_01 0:12

No. For like the next month. You're from Malay. I'm a Lakers fan. I'm a Lakers fan. I'm a Knicks fan for the next like month, you know? Partying in New York, man. How are you guys? Welcome back. It's been a while.

SPEAKER_00 0:26

Yeah, good, good, good. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 0:28

It uh go ahead.

SPEAKER_00 0:30

No, I was just gonna say, can't complain. Knicks in the finals, hyped at all-time highs. Almost at all-time highs.

SPEAKER_01 0:36

It uh, you know, it's an interesting time for you guys to come on because I think crypto is what I'm the most excited to talk about. Hyper liquid, perps, all of this. There's uh yeah, crypto sentiment. We always talk crypto sentiment. Crypto sentiment, I feel like has been a discussion for a while, but it's and I always say like it's the lowest or it's the weirdest, but it's in a particularly unique spot this week where you have hyperliquid above 60, I think 61 right now. We were just charting your great perbification uh of the world on the chart and where that was, which has played out very well since you posted that. Hyper liquid's above 61, Zcash has traded really well, things like VVV have done well. There's a couple spots, and then Bitcoin is just chudding along, and everybody is just rage quitting. And so you basically held hyperliquid, longed Zcash, or you are ready to get carried out. So I guess I'll go to you first, Ryan. We're gonna DeFi Monk and we can just sort of go round table on this. Is like, what do you make of the separation between sentiment and like price action where we are with hyperliquid and then what what everything else is what everyone else is feeling in crypto, how everything else is trading, how are these two things so separate? Why, why does it feel like this right now?

SPEAKER_02 1:56

Yeah, you know, you know what's funny. I I think this is my third time being on here, and every single time I come on here, it's always just like, oh, sentiment is so shit, it feels so bad. And like it almost feels like you know, we're we're kind of on here to kind of give a reason for people to believe. Uh this is funny how it happens, but but yeah, I think for so to me, you know, one thing I've always thought about is at some point we're gonna have some level of decoupling across the gaset class, some dispersion. It's just a natural maturation process. Like as you start to get more sophisticated investors, as you start to get more uh higher quality projects, and especially projects whose fundamentals just aren't tied to cyclicality of crypto. Like, obviously, you will have some things that just don't uh trade one-to-one with Bitcoin. Now, are we there yet? Uh, I'm not sure, but we do have things like hype and Zec and VUV, which are starting to separate from the pack. And it actually makes sense. And in fact, I think this makes more sense than uh any kind of like previous decouplings have, because uh let's just take you know hyperliquid, for example. Like what is actually driving a lot of the growth in volumes? I saw like some people today talking about how hyperliquid fees have been relatively stable throughout the past three months, despite the fact that like price has gone up and obviously the volumes are going, open issues going up. It's because it's all like the equity and commodity stuff that is like lower margin because we have growth mode on that is actually driving the growth, right? And same thing with uh, I think BBB is also uh not to me at least not the same level as hyperliquid, but similar situation where it's just like compound growth, like just nothing to do with what is the price of Bitcoin, it's just are people signing up for Venice or not? People are signing for Venice and they're paying money, the hell is that to do with the price of Bitcoin, right? It doesn't have anything to do with it. And I think there's like more than enough capital that is in this asset class where if you have some assets that are really doing well and proving themselves that they can go up, even if as a whole, the entire asset class is not getting a ton of new inflow. So I think this makes sense. I think it's like a a beginning of what this asset class will look like moving forward, which is that you just have to be a much sharper asset picker because rising tides doesn't always lift all vaults anymore.

SPEAKER_01 4:13

You do have to be really sharp right now. Like there's a couple spots, if you hit them, you feel great. If you didn't, you are in a brute you're you just you've underperformed, especially because the risk to reward or I guess opportunity cost to be trading crypto right now is high. I mean I mean Mike, what what do you think about our select basket of of alts right now that have done relatively well, all things considered?

SPEAKER_00 4:40

No, are you asking me?

SPEAKER_01 4:41

Yeah, yeah, go ahead.

SPEAKER_00 4:42

Yeah, yeah. No, I mean I think I think what you're seeing right now is kind of an asset class that has historically been populated by traders kind of shifting to an asset class that is more fit for an investor, and that's causing a lot of dissonance within the community. And dude, I get it. Like if you are down on your BTC longs, I mean I'm frustrated at BTC too, and you're looking at semiconductor stocks going, you know, like putting up 10% daily candles just like four or five days in a row, you're like, why don't I just leave this garbage asset class and go along these these other trendy momentum assets? And you can do that, like I think that's perfectly fine. Um but I I think at the same time there is a structural edge to having been in crypto over the last five years, to where something like hyperliquid, I mean, we've had now um I mean hyperliquid, I think was I mean it's been live since 2023, but the points program didn't start till really start till like 2024. And then it'd and so we've had now, if you've been in crypto, multiple years in a row of knowing what hyperliquid is, knowing who Jeff is, understanding the story, understanding the narrative. And now you're seeing all of these institutions outside of crypto, all of these exogenous flows, go like, wow, this is this this asset is a stud. Like, I want in on this. And you, as a crypto participant, has now had multiple years of knowing what exactly makes hyperliquid so special. And there are people that I'm calling who are just now going through this discovery phase of understanding why something like hyperliquid is so special. And so that's a structural edge in and of itself. I think it sucks that it's such a low hit rate kind of phenomenon where we only have these few assets that are actually doing well. But if you're willing to lean into that edge, uh, like we are at syncrecy and kind of go, hey, look, everybody is looking at semiconductor spots right now, but there's this asset called hype, which we think is one of the best assets in all asset classes, not just in crypto. We think this could be a stud in equities. We think anybody who understands a narrative will be incredibly bullish on this thing. And so you can just view that, you can flip it and kind of view it as an edge. Like right now, there is edge in crypto if you're just staying in here, if you just know what's going on. And I think what's different from now and before is you really need these protocols to start making some sort of real impact outside of crypto, which is what VVV, which is what hype is doing. I think Zek is appealing to investors outside of crypto as well. Like you've got to find a way to get your story out there beyond just a crypto circle. But once it gets there, you do have an edge in knowing what exactly is actually going on behind these assets.

SPEAKER_01 7:26

You know, I'm I'm more excited to talk about uh the upside of some of the things that are doing well rather than you know why why is everything else so bad. On the hyperliquid uh discussion, I'll ask you, Ryan. It's like okay. I think everyone in crypto unanimously agrees the perps are an incredible product, they're a superior product to what exists in TradFi and the hyperliquid business model is like undefeated. But the valuations do start to get like a little bit lofty from here, especially once you've captured captured everybody in crypto. The question now becomes like, what is it gonna take from a storytelling perspective for the rest of retail? I think hyperliquid is like 15,000 DAU, something like this. Maybe I made that number up, but I had that number written down 15,000 DAUs. What is it gonna take to convince the retail world that perps are better than options? Like, do we need is this like a job you have to go out and spearhead or you on Reddit with like a new Wall Street bets? Like, how do you actually acquire these new people into crypto? Because I think that's what makes the story so interesting interesting.

SPEAKER_02 8:29

Yeah, I'll actually let uh let Monk take this one because he's been doing a lot of work recently on like hyperliquid valuation FDV. I think is like a good good.

SPEAKER_01 8:37

Also, what is the what is our FTV that we're using? Give me that as well.

SPEAKER_00 8:41

Yeah, yeah, I mean sneak peek. Uh we're gonna be putting out a report on this soon where we just kind of because we're gonna be getting this question all the time from people who are not used to crypto valuations. They're going, like, what the hell is FDV? What the hell is circulating? What should this thing actually be worth? Um, I mean, ballpark right now, like we think it should probably be somewhere in between, if not closer to circulating. And so that's a massive shift in the story, right? If all of a sudden hyperliquid is not worth $60 billion.

SPEAKER_01 9:10

Where that goes, why you are not accounting for it?

SPEAKER_00 9:12

Yeah, I mean, I've had a background in equities before, and there is no such thing as an FTV for the average stock. The the way people look at dilution is they look at what is dilution going to be over my investment, forward-looking investment horizon, right? And so what is inflate, what is inflation going to be for shares of NVIDIA over the next few years? And then you kind of run your valuation across diluted EDPS across that time period. No one ever sits down and goes, what is the maximum amount of shares that NVIDIA could ever issue over the entire history of the stock? Right. And so I think now that we're introducing hype to this more traditional kind of investor, we kind of need to speak on their terms. And the reality is like the 40% or so of supply now that is allocated for future incentives, I just don't think that makes sense to be including in any sort of real market cap discussion. One, we have no idea when and if that supply will ever come online. And two, if it does, I think there's a real chance that Jeff and the team decide to use it in an accretive way. Where let's say a dollar worth of hype incentives generates like a dollar or more of hype buybacks. And so it's not really true inflation in the in the typical sense. And so what is inflation really? It's probably just staking rewards, which is pretty minimal, um, like easily offset by buybacks, and then it's just team unlocks. And that's basically what you should be focusing on. And we'll we'll get more in depth in this when we put up uh the report, but that's that's basically I think what investors should use.

SPEAKER_01 10:43

Do you think there's no way we're doing like another hyperliquid airdrop or he's just gonna like community hand these tokens out?

SPEAKER_00 10:50

I just it's not that I don't think that's gonna happen. I think it's unfair to put that into a market cap, like put that as your dominator within an overall valuation. Um, when one, you have no idea that that's going to happen, and two, it's there's a very real likelihood that this could be sort of an accreted decision for supply.

SPEAKER_01 11:09

By the way, it is a good point on stock dilution where we're not sitting here debating like how how much they can inflate NVIDIA. Like this is not a discussion in valuations.

SPEAKER_00 11:20

Yeah, it's a crypto-specific thing, right? Because we're so used to getting dumped on um by waves and waves of VC unlocks. But I I just don't think that for this specific asset that FCD really matters all that much. And I don't think people should I don't think people I don't think hype is worth $60 billion right now. I think the I think the market cap is the real market cap is lower.

SPEAKER_02 11:42

Yeah, like they I think in like in in equities, there's like uh this this concept of like authorized but unissued shares, right? And that's just like all right, like board proves that these shares can be issued, but no, no one issues it. I think that is very similar to what hype is set as set aside right now for future rewards and emissions, right? Like this is authorized, but it doesn't necessarily mean it's going to be used at all. And at least for me personally, this is my personal opinion. Like, I don't I don't know what the team thinks, but I don't see why they would airdrop any more of this. I get it at first. You want to incentivize people to trade, like it's a new exchange, whatever. Dude, people are already trading every single new product Hyperlook puts out, people are trading it without being paid to do it. So why are you gonna pay them to do it? It makes no sense. They're just gonna sell it, right?

SPEAKER_01 12:29

It's a really good point. I this yeah, it's also like uh one of the first times I feel like we've had a token founder that's really cared about the token price, you know, like really tried to figure out how to make this token price go up. I I guess Monk, to let you finish, what is your take on the story aspect of it? Like, how do you you know one of the things I'm starting to see that is exciting is you see these more Trad5 focused stock guys like Amit is investing. I watch him every morning for market open. He has like 11,000 concurrent viewers. It's all I mean, it's a lot of viewers. There's probably like three, four hundred people watching this across all platforms. He has like 11,000 every morning. And when he came on the stream two months ago, maybe three months ago, I asked him about hyperliquid and he sort of was like, I don't know, crypto. I I hold Robin Hood, but I'm not I don't know. I've heard of it, whatever. A couple days ago, he's posting that the SPX chart on you know, pre-Futures Open on like Saturday, hyper liquid, and everyone's in the comments hyper liquid, hyper liquid, hyper liquid, and he's posting Cerebris pre-IPO price. And so one of the things when I think about uh especially the trade XYZ eco is that there's a lot of fence sitters, like Malcolm had this point. There's a lot of fence sitters where there's a lot of people that are watching it, that are uh typing the URL into the browser, they're paying attention to the to the price action, but they're they're fence sitters. They're like, you know, we say crypto curious, like they're not actually clicking the trade button, they don't actually have a wallet, they're not actually executing the transactions. How do you go over that uh middle ground of the fence and like convert? How do you convert those people? Because it's I mean it's kind of infinite, right?

SPEAKER_00 14:04

Yeah, I mean, it just goes back to your the uh the last part of the question you asked before that I didn't really get to, but we broke down the great perplification TAM as starting off, like in the first few innings, as retail, right? And and that's a huge segment. We don't need to even be looking at institutions for now to see hyperliquid grow its addressable market by multiples from here. And retail, you can really think about it as two segments. There's like your traditional retail, like your your aunt or your sister or your brother or your friend, your high school friend, who's just like trading stocks on Robinhood and they're going about their day and they're they're they're going to their job. Um, and then you have sort of your sophisticated retail investor, right? Which is either people on Wall Street Bets, they're on FinTwit. And when we first started seeing the silver ticker um and then the oil ticker on TradeX XYZ hyperliquid start popping off, I started seeing a lot of these Twitter accounts that were on like commodities Twitter, on FinTwit that weren't really necessarily CT native at all, start talking about hyperliquid and start posting hyperliquid charts and maybe even start like posting slips of their hyperliquid trades. And I think that sophisticated retail investor is going to be your first entrant. That's the low, low-hanging fruit. And the way you get them in is simply by offering them a way to make money, which hyperliquid I think is starting to do. Like if you want to trade these, if you want to trade SpaceX and Anthropic pre-IPO, there is nowhere else to do that. Right? If you want to trade oil on the weekends, there is nowhere else to do that. And I think that is going to be basically your user acquisition funnel in the early stages, where eventually people will start to realize they're actually losing money by not trading on hyperliquid. And that's going to be the next step for how we start to convert some of these passive sideliners who could be users but are not currently users. Down the line, I think with builder codes, you can get some interesting front ends that go like direct direct to your average retail consumer. But for now, I think we just need to show all these people that, dude, you're like losing money by not trading on hyperliquid.

SPEAKER_01 16:03

How ridiculous is it enthropic just raises series H. It's like, bro.

SPEAKER_00 16:07

Yeah, I didn't series H. I didn't even know the VC alphabet went that high.

SPEAKER_01 16:12

Series H is disgusting. I you know, I want to ask you this, Ryan, is like I don't know how um like what percent of your capital is like allocated to hyperliquid, but it feels like it's a lot. One of the most difficult things I did trading, like I I I don't like regret this, but I I look back, I missed out a lot of money by going so overweight Bitcoin in like April 2025. We had all the scares, we had all like the tariff scares, markets get destroyed. I had a lot of cash. I like fully allocated to Bitcoin, which performed pretty well. We got 126k from like 75 or whatever, but I ended up round shipping it, and part of the problem was I had no ability to position in anything new because I was like, no, my Bitcoin, like spot Bitcoin, like I can't trade it. Like, I got I just got very attached to the position, I was so overweight, and I had no freedom or flexibility to like move in and out of anything new. So I'm just curious from like a capital allocator perspective. Like, I don't know how have you been able to like be so seemingly tunnel vision on hyperliquid, and how do you not feel the FOMO of like the semis trade and the AI trade and the photonics trade and the metals trade when that happened? Uh while it's all like converging at the same time.

SPEAKER_02 17:27

Yeah, well, I mean, the easy answer is that we just have a mandate to invest in crypto, so we we can't like buy semis in the in the fund. But even think for myself personally, because at the end of the day, like there's a big opportunity cost. I mean, I even put out like a tweet about this the other day. There's a big opportunity cost of doing anything versus being in AI right now. Yeah, for fact. Like you could make a career change if you wanted to, and of course, it's not easy to just go and jump into AI into like an attractive opportunity. Like you build a career, you build relationships, and it's not easy to do it instantly. I think to myself, okay, well, what is the reason to be in this asset class? And what are the things that that excite me? And you mentioned like kind of being tunnel vision hyperliquid. Uh, and in some ways, it's like, yes, uh, it is maybe on the outside looks like tunnel vision, but what we're really doing is we're just saying no a thousand times every single day to everything else. And you know, one helpful framework that I think that we've developed for ourselves is uh, and that I think I think it's almost like helpful for people, and I think many people crypto already do this at this point, but like really invest in asset classes outside of crypto. Like, invest, don't trade, like buy a real company that you believe in and just like hold it. And it'll train you to actually think like an investor, and you can like absorb more of the volatility, you can think long term, you actually think about the business, right? Now, if you do that and then you go back to crypto, it'll make you realize that most of these tokens are not businesses and you should not be invested in them, right? But for the rare things that are like real businesses and like actually meet that threshold where they're interesting to someone who doesn't have a mandate to be in crypto, like that's what you hold on to. And that's what you hold on to for a very long time because it's really hard to find those things. And I think for for us, it's like so long as this story continues to progress the way that we see it progressing, this thesis continues to evolve and get more exciting, uh, it's not that hard to continue holding this thing. And you know, one behavioral difference that I see this cycle versus last cycle is that you know, 2020, 2021, what was like the dominant mentality was HODL. I haven't heard someone say HODL in like like four years or something like that. And I guess like no one says that shit anymore. No one like I feel like if you said HODL on the TL, people would be like laughing at you, right? Hodle, I low-key think, is making a comeback because over the past couple years, people have been trained that okay, like the way to make money is that is actually to be in meme coins and you got you gotta be in and out, like you gotta be in perps, like go 5x long, and you gotta make sure you get the stop loss, you gotta cut your wrist, da da da. Right? And I get it because in 2021, uh, if you didn't end up selling, you probably round tripped a lot of generational wealth.

SPEAKER_01 20:27

Yes.

SPEAKER_02 20:27

So I get why people became more short-term, and I get why this cycle, when all you're doing is being supposed in perps, you are short-term because by the very nature of those instruments or those assets, you have to be short-term. But to take advantage of some of these opportunities, at least that we're seeing in the market today, you can't really trade. If you're the kind of guy who's like trying to trade hype, you might have like sold 20, or then you like sell 40, and then you try to buy again. Before you know it, you're just bleeding PL, uh, or like eating a ton of fees, or you're eating like taxes by trying to try to do this. So um, yeah, I don't know. Long-winded way of saying, I think that this is becoming like this is like the age of the the crypto investor that's coming, and it's not gonna happen overnight, and there's not like an abundance of opportunities right now, but I think as time passes, there's gonna be there's going to be more hyper liquids. Maybe it's not gonna be like tomorrow, but maybe a year from now or two years from now, there's more opportunities that are similar to this.

SPEAKER_01 21:21

I actually think it's a sick take on the trading time frame where it's like everyone has shifted so far into perps and meme coins, into zero-day options, into like piling in on a move on a Trump tweet or on like a Serenity tweet or a Citrini tweet. The price action is so schizo. And you'll like be long and then you'll get stopped out, and it'll be long and you'll be stopped out, and you'll be like, Man, if I just like close my eyes for two weeks, even like the difference in you know, holding for two weeks, three weeks versus a day, a couple hours. I spent a lot, I mean, I spent like probably the last three months doing like intraday trades. I'm like, man, this is awesome. I don't want to do this anymore. And you look at some of these guys that have played semis, um, were like it reminded me of like early AI season a little bit where it's like you got sellers got punished. If you sold at any point, it was like, why'd you do that? If you traded hyper liquid, you got punished. Like, why did you why'd you why did I I'm sitting here like, why did I long hype 37 close at 32? Like, you know, you you got punished. And so speaking of holding things long term, I might be misquoting you on this, but I feel like you guys have gone easier on ETH than most. Uh to be relative, like, yeah, to be kind of optimistic about ETH amongst, I don't know. I mean, even bankless capitulated, uh, David Hoffman capitulated, which is crazy. I mean, I don't know. I mean, I was here 2021. That's crazy.

SPEAKER_02 22:44

Yeah, we we we don't hold any any ETH to be clear. Uh, but you know, I mean, yeah, just on the topic of ETH, I it's just one of those things where like everyone, at least on Twitter and amongst like my friend group, is so bearish on this thing at this point that I just have to start questioning. Okay, like, why is this thing still worth 200 billion? And 200 billion, I'm not bullish myself. I don't own any, I don't have any interest in owning any. But I do want to keep monitoring this because maybe the market is sending a signal that there's still a lot of value here. It's not it's not worth 200 billion dollars for for no reason. It's not it's not like arbitrary, right? And I keep thinking too, okay, maybe it's like a shit asset right now, but maybe a year from now or two years from now, it becomes investable. And what could be the reasons why? Who knows? Maybe it's because they like ZK everything on Ethereum, and now it's like it's like a combination of BTC, ETH, and Zec all into one asset. Maybe they get like a bunch of roles to start scaling, and maybe they get a bunch of enterprise to start doing it, maybe they get a bunch of like payments to start working on it. I don't know. Like you always have to be open to the future looking vastly different than what it is today. And I think that uh my my my fear is that if I kind of get too caught up in the whole like ETH is cooked hype, that you end up missing out on what what could be like a great trade down the road.

SPEAKER_00 24:14

Yeah, I think this is one of those assets where if you talk to somebody in crypto, and then you talk to somebody who's in, let's say, like a finance role, he's an investment banker, he works at a PE fund or he works at a hedge fund, um they're gonna have completely different views on ETH as an asset. And I think that's interesting. I mean, if you ask the average person who's working in finance, let's say they own ETH, they have like a small percentage of their portfolio in it, they have some left over from the last cycles or whatever. If you ask them they care about how much revenue ETH is making, like most of them really do not care in the slightest. And that's interesting, right? Because I think that's one of that's been one of the biggest criticisms of of Ethereum as a as an asset, is the network itself is not really making money. And then I think there are other differences that I noticed. Like people outside of crypto do kind of care about this digital bedrock thing, this Lindy effect thing, this idea of a network and an asset that's going to be around for decades um at these like pretty pretty like relatively high levels of valuation for any any any asset. Um and I think I think Ethereum will be one of those things that occupies a very, very unique space in crypto. It's the most secure smart contracts network. Um it's going to be the most Lindy smart contract network. Uh and over time, and you're seeing it right, if you're playing the game of constantly competing with other blockchains, whether you're Solana, whether you're hyperliquid on performance, uh, on speed, on bandwidth, um on on hot new sectors like stable coins, I think it's just kind of going to be a more brutal game. Not saying that there's not going to be winners. Um but I do think nobody is trying to build what Ethereum is anymore.

SPEAKER_01 26:04

Fair.

SPEAKER_00 26:05

And I think over time, maybe there's some value in what they've built. And we just we just don't see it right now. But you know, like Ryan said, we don't own any ETH. So we we we just we just don't we just don't like to see this like uh uh incessant bearishness on what we think. Yeah, go ahead, Ryan.

SPEAKER_02 26:22

Yeah, I was gonna say, because like I always think about like what were some of the original reasons why I got into this in the first place. Like I'm going down the rabbit hole in 2014 and 2017, and what really like piqued my interest was Ethereum. And this isn't like uh a call for any nostalgia, it's not like I'm like, oh wow, these are like the great times, and I I want I want ETH to work because of like that's how it was set in 2017. But I do think those original values that vision that Ethereum laid out that Kasani kind of hinted at, uh, I think it's real. And as much as I am excited about hyperliquid, uh, like listen, like having 28 whatever validators in Tokyo all co-educated, I don't think that you can build the global financial system on top of that. Like, I think you need something that actually is going to be robust to like any one actor uh manipulating the system, a data center going down. Like, could you imagine if like we're really trying to put the entire global economy on blockchains, like all payments, all trading, all lending, and like the blockchain just goes down for like an hour? So you're telling me the economy just stops? That's catastrophic.

SPEAKER_01 27:35

Catastrophic.

SPEAKER_02 27:36

So I think that something like Ethereum does make sense. And it could just be the case that to build something like Ethereum, it's like this multi-decade project because it's like a civilizational scale public infrastructure that we're building. Now, here's the thing that could be the case that yes, that is the end game, and we all see this end game, but you start from different points. And maybe Ethereum is not the right way to do it because they're starting off being too ideologically driven, it's too slow. And then in contrast, hyperliquid comes in and they're like, you know what? Let's just be practical. Let's start with like four servers. Like, let's start with four, and like let's actually build a product that people want to use, which is just perps. Like, yeah, you guys can do the whole like you know, spot, you guys can do lending, but reality, like no one wants to borrow against their e-back. We just want to trade. Let's just trade equities, let's trade prediction markets, let's trade commodities to that. And then let's actually start to expand horizontally from there. And then by the way, let's actually start to distribute the validator set more so that there's not four, there's like 12 and 20 and so forth. And who knows, maybe in the long term, you actually do get something that starts to resemble more of a Solana, where it is like a larger validator set that's measured to hundreds. Maybe you can start to distribute it a little bit more outside of the geographical concentration of Japan. And so the push becomes the question of path dependence of like, all right, is is it it does hyperliquid win because it was like the first to kind of get to escape velocity and get all these users, get all these integrations with these big uh brokerages and neobanks and and so forth? Or is it the Ethereum path where it's like, all right, let's just start by making this foundation super, super fucking sturdy. And then eventually, like we can start to build like all the things people want uh eventually. So good question, if I'm if I'm really being honest. As much as I like amega bullish on hyperliquid for this feeble future, I I you you have to be open-minded to the fact that it could still go uh in Ethereum favor.

SPEAKER_01 29:43

It's a good point. The time horizon thing is what's gonna crush a lot of people because it is civilizational scale. I like that the way you frame that. It is like it's a massive overhaul sort of vision. I want to ask you one uh Bitcoin question as well, just because I mean I'm still kind of a Bitcoin maxi through and through. And I'm curious, like I'll ask you Ryan, then I'll let Diva Monko is like as if we could assume that a couple select alts, hype, BTC, Zec, BTC, VVV, BTC, whatever, outperform Bitcoin. Maybe you even reach decoupling stage. You could argue hyperliquid has already done it, but let's say it like really expands and pushes. Where does that lead Bitcoin? Because you know, I almost there's almost a part of me that thinks that there you've been in crypto longer than I have, but there's this sort of collective myth that Bitcoin leads and then everything else comes after it, and it's very self-reinforcing, right? Every cycle that goes on where that happens, you're more inclined. Okay, Bitcoin's gonna lead, it's gonna play out the same way every single time until it doesn't and it gets broken. And maybe that's happening right now, maybe it's not, maybe we have to deal with some sailor outflows, whatever, whatever the case. But where does that leave uh Bitcoin as a standalone asset amongst this kind of everything bubble that we're rushing towards right now?

SPEAKER_02 31:00

Yeah, uh so I think again, like I think that over time, so here's what I'll say crypto used to be this like self-contained corner of the internet, and it just grew beyond that. And I think with each stage, the behavior of this market has changed a little bit. It happens slow, it's not instant. It's not like one day you wake up and all of a sudden the market just changes. But over time you start to see like just different little diff little different things, right? So you see, you know, in the past cycle, it's like, oh wait, we didn't really have an all season, it was just meme coins like oh damn, like these other ones didn't work. Oh wait, DeFi was cooked, it's actually meme coins, and then uh the past year was supposed to be like you know, four-year cycle, 2025 is supposed to be the year. The 2025 sucked. Like, like Bitcoin was down on the year, we didn't get any all season, it was horrible, right? And then this year, it's supposed to be like the bear market, four-year cycle. Oh, you wait until October to buy. And yeah, for Bitcoin, it's been shit, but then for hyperliquid, it bottomed in January and has actually been pretty much up only since then. This market changes over time, and I think it's a good thing because as you start to uh get a wider variety of people in that have different biases, different ways of thinking about investing, different ways to think about these assets, I think all these assets start to behave a little bit uh differently. So now I think about like where's where's Bitcoin today? I think Bitcoin is just like a bona fide macro asset, it's a big one too. This thing is like one, two trillion dollars. It's a big asset, it's not gonna go up multiples every single year anymore. That's just not the way it's going to behave. And there's also a chance that this thing can just go sideways for a long time. There are many periods in the past like 40 years where gold just didn't go anywhere, right? And you could say, okay, okay, this is like a merging store of value. And no, it's like you can create a million reasons why Bitcoin's just gonna continue to go up. It's like the basic assumption underpinning this entire, like the entire investor psyche of this asset class is that Bitcoin always goes up. You never sell your Bitcoin, you always hold the Bitcoin. It's the first thing that leads, the first thing that falls. That just might not be true. Like eventually you might just get some assets that just because they actually, if we actually believe this shit actually matters, like we're gonna create products that people use, eventually you will get assets that just don't do something totally different for Bitcoins, do we? They go up for different reasons, they go down for different reasons, and Bitcoin's its own thing. And it makes sense because the way I thought about it is Bitcoin, if you categorize it like a store of value like gold, and you categorize something like hyperliquid more like say an equity, well, dude, look at like equity and gold correlations. Like these are just two different things. Yeah, they're they are so yeah. All to say, I think uh Bitcoin has its own set of issues right now, and I think those issues may prevent some capital from coming into asset class because there still is some, there still are some people that treat this all as like one lump sum thing. Uh but I think that's just gonna only continue to get better, I guess, for the dispersion of their terms over time.

SPEAKER_01 34:14

I don't think I gave enough credit to how big Bitcoin got. Like I saw this thing today that it uh just dropped out of the top 10 assets in the world. Like it was you know, like some of these price targets feel like whoa, when you look at it at scale compared to NVIDIA and compared to Google and compared to some of these some of these assets. It's like whoa.

SPEAKER_02 34:33

Yeah, we won.

SPEAKER_01 34:35

Yeah. Um Monk, I I I'll go back to hyperliquid. I'll ask you a couple more, I'll I'll let you go soon. On sort of the on the hyperliquid topic broadly, like I think the most exciting aspect of it is like when I think back on crypto, my time in crypto, I think about periods where new participants have entered. And the two standout ones are when I entered in crypto, like 2020, 2021 through Top Shot NFTs was like a huge moment of just like net new buyers, creators, everything thinkers, everything in between participants. And I think of 2024, which I know not everyone loves to think back on 2024, but there were net new players that showed up for meme coins for AI coins, maybe blow off the top with uh with Trump, and you did have Bitcoin ETFs, and I don't know how many new people came in for like you know, Solana ETFs and things like this, but it does feel like uh but behind one of the first successful dats ever with PER and then the hyperliquid ETF, there is like a net new buyer entering the arena to play hyperliquid. And I'm curious who are these people, how should we think of think of them and think about them, and how does that dynamic evolve? Because it feels like a little bit of a new game.

SPEAKER_00 35:53

Yeah, and I think I think there's a couple of camps, right? You have your typical like family offices, uh, you have your discretionary hedge funds, like I think D1 posted a 13F where they own per like uh in February, and they're a pretty well-regarded shop. Um, and I think we'll start seeing seeing more of that. Uh, and then you have kind of like your longer-term source of capital, uh, like your endowments and whatever. I think the first step is really kind of like the discretionary hedge fund people, um, your your nimbler family offices, uh, your citrini adjacent types, like the type the people on FinTwit that like read Citrini and he's been he's been tweeting about hype a decent amount. And these people have a lot of money. Uh they have a lot of money, they don't really care about Bitcoin. Like, they don't care if Bitcoin is up or down. If they see a good asset, they'll buy it. They care about a believable story, which hyperliquid is. They care about cash flows, they care about whether or not it's making revenue. They can very easily forecast. Like, I think the biggest thing is people in crypto today kind of look at hype and they go, this is so expensive for a crypto asset. It's pumped for so long. They have so much PTSD from crypto assets in general, and they go, hey, there's always a chance that there's some sort of regulatory black swan event and this thing just gets wrecked. Right. And I think that's natural because that's happened so many times in the asset class. But I think whenever I speak to these people who work at funds, who work at um sell side shops, like people who are asking me what this what what this asset is, once they understand what the actual addressable market is, like what it could potentially disrupt, uh, the risk is just kind of like uh, okay, whatever. Like, yeah, okay, this thing can get, yeah, there's there's some regulatory, there's some risks behind regulatory clarity. It's fine. Like if this thing actually does end up disrupting this multi like $100 billion uh like exchange and brokerage space, then it's going to be orders of magnitude more successful than what it's what it's done already. And I think that sort of asymmetry is what's getting people really excited. And so uh they're not really looking at, okay, like can a DeFi or crypto or L1 token get to like $100 billion plus? They're looking at Charles Schwab and IBKR sitting at like $150 billion valuations. Like they're looking at, okay, is this actually a better type of business than those are because they actually own the underlying exchange infrastructure? They're thinking about all these things, and and and it's just kind of opening up. Like I I've I just talked to a hedge fund analyst the other day, and we had like a two-hour conversation, and by the end of it, like his mind was blown. I think I think I think the biggest issue that people have is they just don't know how to find the information that they need about hyperlooping because there's no 10K. You can't just hit up Jeff on the phone and go, like, yo, like what is this? What is that? There's no like you have to the docs aren't that helpful from an investing perspective. And I think what's changed is now you can go to David Chamis and Bob Diamond. You can go to Grayscale, who's marketing their ETF, you can go to Bitwiles, and these people are helping get the story out there. And I think the way that this stuff works is you know, one dude buys it in their fund, he tells another fund to buy it because now they're in it, and he starts sharing the story, and then that starts spreading like wildfire, and then sell side analysts are covering per, and then all of a sudden you kind of have this like mass CradFi FOMO event coming into this token while crypto natives are just completely sidelined. I mean, over the past few weeks, per uh the data has bought like 80 million or so in hype, and the ETFs have bought over 100 million in hype, and this is only going to continue. Like, I don't know why we're focusing on LoRa's short, which is like 100 million dollars when PER has 100 million dollars in the bank to buy more hype, and they're running this ATM weekly now. And so, like, I I really think where we the typical like TA crypto traders get messed up is when we enter a paradigm ship for an asset, and you just you're marketing now to a much larger group of cap a much larger class of capital. Um, and I just don't think these inflows are priced in at all.

SPEAKER_01 40:12

That was sick. That was really sick. How do you guys price regulatory risk?

SPEAKER_00 40:20

Yeah. Do you want me to take this round?

SPEAKER_02 40:22

Uh sure, go for it.

SPEAKER_00 40:25

Uh I mean, I think it's it's one of those things where okay, what you have to kind of take these worldviews and go, okay, what happens if hyperliquid is not legal in the US, right? Well, that is just sort of what it is right now. And I think one thing that we walk through in the in the perbification thesis is the potential for something like hyperliquid to disrupt global CFDs, right? And so CFDs trade about a trillion dollars a day. And this is mostly global activ uh glob notionally, and and this is mostly global activity. And so there even in the state where hyperliquid is not legal in the United States, I think you can build a fine business off of that, a really, really good business off of that activity. It it probably is not as exciting, but it's still, I mean, hyperliquid as it exists today is still a very, very interesting business. But then it's like, okay, what if that gets unlocked in some way? Like Trump the other day was just tweeting about perpetuals. I mean, it definitely wasn't Trump. It definitely wasn't Trump. But somebody on the Trump administration is tweeting about perpetuals. Uh, we have Jake Travinsky, who is top of his class at what he does in DC. You have now hyperliquid in bed with Coinbase and Circle. Uh obviously, Paradigm's a huge stakeholder in hype. Obviously, you have now Grayscale, a huge stakeholder in hype, Bitwise, a huge stakeholder in hype. And so I'm like, if this thing passes, the sky is the limit for hyperliquid. And so when you view the risk return of that trade, of like, okay, if this shit doesn't work, then hyperliquid is basically just what it is today, and it can still be a secular grower. If it does work, this thing becomes like a mega business uh uh almost overnight. And so when you when you weigh those two outcomes, it it becomes really obvious to me. And so I think it's just playing those probabilistic views.

SPEAKER_02 42:12

Yeah, I think I think uh Monk makes a good point. This is actually a topic that comes up often in discussions with different discretionary hedge fund managers, is like inequities, because they're all looking at this. Like many in many cases, these people just like copy train each other. And there's a new idea that spreads like wildfire, and they all start doing this. And it's kind of funny because I think uh again, because so many people in this asset class, like regulatory overhang has been this existential threat for so long, and it's really screwed some projects. People are so scared of this risk. And when you tell someone, uh some of my buddies that work in these shops, like, hey, listen, you're gonna like the future of hyperliquid is like unified margin to trade any asset in the world. And they get the vision instantly. They're like, wow, this is incredible. In fact, there's maybe only like three to five businesses across all asset classes across the world that are even playing for this outcome. And hyperliquid is one of them. And it's probably most unique because the business itself is not like a traditional equity finance business. It's like 12 guys that just went and built this thing, it's just software that runs like almost autonomously, it has 99% net income margins. It's literally like a money machine. This is a money printer, like it's just all going back to the hype, the hype token. And when you tell them, okay, this is the vision, and okay, there's just like this regulatory risk that maybe they can't get in the United States, they're like, oh, so you're telling me that this could be one of like the greatest financial businesses in the world, but there's just like regulatory risk, they're like, okay, well, I just will note that there's this risk and I'll get long. You know, it's not like this stops them from like being long. You know, it just it doesn't make any sense. Right. Another thing too is um I think uh ironically, there are many people in crypto that are a little bit too valuation sensitive. And I think what it is is that you know historically uh not being valuation sensitive got people burned because you know you end up losing money, and then now everyone just went like the exact opposite direction and like they start pulling out their calculators and like, oh, I I pulled out my calculator. Yeah, complete opposite.

SPEAKER_01 44:30

It used to be crypto math, you would get inflated crypto valuations, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 44:33

And it's just like, do you do you know how many businesses have been expensive their entire life in public markets and have still gone on to go up like 10 100x? Like being like expensive does not mean don't own, right? Like I think people need to be crystal clear about that. Like, this is also a business that is growing like you know, triple digit percentages like year over year, right? Right? I mean, yeah, of course it's probably gonna look expensive along the way. Yeah, right.

SPEAKER_00 45:03

It's it's funny because they'll do a DCF of hyperliquid and then they'll go and long some semiconductor stock with zero DD and just go stay as well.

SPEAKER_01 45:11

Right. Also, the on the regulatory side, there's uh like I think that's why there's a uh such a big trade opportunity, is because you have this overhang of like there's like delta to be captured on is there risk, is there not? There was that what was up with that tokenized stocks announcement a couple days ago, Hester Pierce thing where they're like came out and made this like really pro announcement and then walked it back like 10 minutes later. Was something weird happened there? But the red candle just got gobbled on that. I mean, that was that was a little bit bizarre, huh? What what what happened there?

SPEAKER_02 45:41

Yeah, I mean, so my once again, I'm not not like a lawyer here, but my read of that is that that had nothing to do with perps. This is about like actual tokenized assets. Yeah, and I think the reason why they end up making this uh that specification is because you don't want it to be the case where, and I think the SEC realizes, where like anyone, like not just the issuer, can create a tokenized like security and then feel it's like inconsistent the rights that people have by holding it. Like they want to prevent all these like random, like you know, anthropic SPV wrapper, and yes, like one of the great things about when you trade through your broker accounts, whether it be IBKR, Charles Schwab, is you don't have to question about like is the asset you're holding actually the asset, but when you're buying some like random tokenized equity on Solana, it's like dude, what the hell am I even buying? What do I hold? Is it just like yeah, I've I you have no idea. Do you have any voting rights? Do you get dividend distributions? You've like it, it's just you have no idea. So I think it is a good thing that they kind of like pump the brakes a little bit and be like, all right, like let's make sure we do this right. So if you do this right, this is gonna be a huge, like, huge, huge, huge unlock to be able to do that.

SPEAKER_01 46:55

So then I ask you on the um also the spv space as a whole is a disaster. But then how do you think about like okay, Trade XYZ lists cerebrus pre-IPO? Do you have the same like what the hell do I hold type of feeling?

SPEAKER_02 47:11

No, because I think in that case it's clear, I I don't actually hold the equity, it's just like this derivative. But I think the difference is like with the tokenized equity, you're like, unless you actually go through the documentation and read the fine print, you think you're actually holding the equity and you're actually not.

SPEAKER_01 47:28

Yeah, makes sense. Um that's a good point, by the way. It's it's the whole scene. You talk to some of these SPV guys, and they show you I have you know, I have an Andrew, and I'm like, who are you? You have it from a guy like what is going on here? Carrie's ridiculous. Um, congratulations, guys. You're you're fine. What is your guys' relationship? I think it's so funny you go on on uh on pods together. I love it. Like, what what is your your like relationship? And then what is the vibe, like the vibe at syncrecy? Like, how many of you are there, and what are what is everyone working on?

SPEAKER_02 47:58

Yeah, well, I mean, we work together. That's that's that's our relationship. Uh yeah, so there's four people on our investment team. Uh, my co-founder Dan, who doesn't really do any public experiences, and we have Wilson on our team who's worked with the Masari. Uh yeah, what else? I mean, I guess one of the reasons why we like to do these podcasts together is oftentimes we're talking about hyperliquid. We co-wrote the great perfectation uh thesis. Uh Sonny likes or yeah, Monk likes spearheaded that one. Uh but yeah, I think it's like, you know, I think Monk is kind of like the in-house hyperliquid historian expert. Uh, so it's always good to kind of have him on the the like these live streams and podcasts when we're talking about hyperliquid.

SPEAKER_00 48:38

Yeah, I mean Ryan's my boss. That's that's our relationship. I I went and asked him for a job out of Masari. Shout out to Tulip King, by the way. I know he's working with you right now. We were together at Masari. Uh yeah, no, I mean, like I was at Masari with uh Tulip with a bunch of other guys. Um and I was at the time like entertaining, potentially moving on, and I go, okay, if I had like my pick of where I could work, where would I want to work? And I honestly, I was obviously trading on my own. Um, I have a public investing background. I was thinking about working at a liquid fund, but I didn't know if I wanted to jump into the liquid space at that time because I felt it was still pretty early for liquid investing, if we're being honest, which clearly was correct. I mean, liquid funds have not been doing well. Um, but I said if I could if I could just work somewhere, it would probably be syncrecy. Because I've seen these guys like male soul, I've seen the male hype timed both incredibly well, and then sized into both um in an incredibly concentrated fashion. I'm like, honestly, these dudes are Chad's, and if I could work with anybody, I'd want to work with them. And so Ryan and I knew each other before because he was a Missari alum and we hadn't met up to talk about hyperliquid, and so I just I just asked Ryan for a job.

SPEAKER_01 49:52

Wait, before I let you go, I'm reading this book right now. It's called More Money Than God. Yeah, you you read it before?

SPEAKER_02 49:58

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 49:58

I have this like hedge fund obsession right now. Um, what is the state of of liquid funds in crypto specifically? And how like how did you I guess you went from Masari and you started secrecy?

SPEAKER_02 50:13

Yeah, so yeah, so my background uh invest in banking, masari, investing in secrecy. My co-founder was also invest in banking. That's where I met my co-founder, and then he did like long short equities and then long only for uh about five years. And yeah, we started secrecy. As far as like state of liquid managers or liquid funds right now, I'd say like listen, I think the past four years has not been the greatest environment for anyone who's just long bias, with the exception of Bitcoin and then like a couple outliers. Are you long only? Generally we are we are long only. Yeah, yes, we we don't short for the better, honestly.

SPEAKER_01 50:50

It's like shorting is a dark arts, man.

SPEAKER_02 50:53

Yeah, I mean, listen, like this is early stage tech. Like if you have the short to make money, it's because this tech sucks. And if the tech sucks, then why are we here? All right. So I think we've always just been long-only because I think that's like the actually the asymmetric opportunity that we've we've seen with this asset class for for as long as I've been here. Um but yeah, so what I was gonna say. Oh, yeah. So the past four years, I think we haven't really been in a secular uptrend for the asset class, with the exception of Bitcoin. It's been a very mixed bag of things trading, even Solana, which was like the coin of last cycle. I mean, you can argue that it like barely even broke its all-time highs from 2021. It's kind of just been in a range since then. Uh, same thing with Ethereum. In fact, like the only assets that have seemingly like made new highs have just been like the new ones, like like hyperliquid. So uh I think it's been like a challenging environment for liquid funds. Uh, but what I will say is that, and I think this year is like actually a good thing, is with Bitcoin kind of struggling, uh, I think asset selection outside of Bitcoin has really been a big differentiator. And if you've been able to pick well, uh you probably have done well this year. And I think this is like a sign of what's to come for the asset class that there's more investable assets beyond Bitcoin that can actually put up the numbers in outperform. So uh at least that's like what what we we'll be seeing um internally in the RA.

SPEAKER_00 52:18

Sarah.

SPEAKER_01 52:19

Go ahead, Mark.

SPEAKER_00 52:21

Oh, yeah. I mean, I was just gonna say that like hype at one point was uh like two billion dollars, you could have gotten an entry on, and now it's at like 60. And so so $2 to $60 in the public markets in an incredibly short period of time. And if you're an allocator and you want exposure to that, there's just no way you're gonna do that yourself. Like there this asset class is a minefield. Um, you you can't do it passively. There's no index of crypto tokens you can buy to get exposure to crypto. So if you want liquid exposure, like your best bet is probably to go find a liquid manager or avoid the asset class entirely, which is what a lot of people have done too.

SPEAKER_01 52:58

So sick.

SPEAKER_02 53:00

I think that the indexing part is actually this maybe one last thing. The indexing part is actually really funny because you know, in equities, you can see like SP 500, you can do a QQQ, whatever. It's like really easy to systematically allocate it to it. There's like no equivalent in this asset class, like literally none. I think for the longest time, people have treated Bitcoin as the index because it's like the easiest thing to buy. You can buy it for free in your broker account, retirement account, whatever. But if we're actually gonna have like real use cases, real products that merge beyond Bitcoin, then that doesn't actually that doesn't capture the full opportunity. And you know what's actually interesting? I was on like um a couple uh strategy calls for like the different uh you know hyperliquity TS recently. And there are some people who are allocating to hype and they're not really valuation sensitive here. And literally the view is more of like a portfolio construction lens of okay, in order to capture the opportunity, I need to have you know X, Y, and Z assets in these weightings to fully capture the opportunity, right? Because sometimes like that's actually the most important thing when you have like a big cycle trend, is like, yeah, you can be the you can be the guy that says, okay, I'm gonna find like the best asset and I'm gonna like make the most money, or you can be the guy to be like, you know what, I could do that and then I can swing and miss, which is a risk, or I can just like try to make sure that I capture whatever opportunity there is. Because listen, if this asset class is gonna be a thing and it compounds at like 25-30% for the next decade, you just need to make sure that you just capture the asset class, right? Like it doesn't matter if you like miss out on like the one big thing by not being super size. Uh, you just want to make sure that you're like you're in the trade and you you you capture and you get the exposure. Like that that is that is what people have lost sight of, I think, that in all of this is that you gotta think long term, five, 10 years out. What do you think is gonna be the cater for this asset class? And make sure you find ways to take advantage of that and not take yourself up game.

SPEAKER_01 55:00

It's a good point, too, because these like others' charts are just like filled with dead money. It's like they have all this garbage, and they're not even you can't even use them to chart against anything. Um look, you guys are sick. I I think what you do is so sick. I have a huge like fun thing going right now, so I'm like particularly interested in in your job, and you guys have nailed the hyperliquid trade so publicly. So I look forward to our part four, maybe when Bitcoin's at 60k, hype it, hype it 100, and everybody's in panic mode. I text Brian, please please come on. Um, you guys are awesome. Thank you again for coming on. And uh oh, let me ask you a question. Someone type this in the chat. Um, last question, I'll let you go. Malcolm type this, my co-founder. I've been running around saying I'm obsessed with activists investing right now. I think it's the coolest thing ever. There was this company that came, uh, this fund Irene Capital came out. They bought like 3% of Snapchat. They fucking posted 60-page presentation on like exactly what Spiegel should do and how it's gonna work. They didn't listen. Um, what is your your take on the large distribution channel, like a Citrini, like an Ansom, like one of these uh really large, like KOL type of figures in FinTwit transitioning into the like activist managing money, liquid sort of scene. Last question, I'll let you go. Sounds like what you're doing then, huh? No, I'm just I run around the house all day. I run around the house all day. I'm like, when I make 10 million on my hyper liquid account, we're turning counterparty into a fun. I'd run around screaming it all day.

SPEAKER_02 56:34

Yeah. Uh I was gonna say, so uh so I think like we've seen this already, I think, in Venture Capital, like this like influencer-led fun management, where like if you can build a reputation and you get a ton of followers on you know, Substack and Twitter, uh, and you build a reputation in in the industry, then you know you might be able to source interesting deals and then you can do it fun. And you've seen like so many people do this over the past like five, ten years. It's like they start out with a blog, they started out with a podcast, whatever, and they raised the money and they did that. Uh, I think for liquid investing, it's a little bit different because it's not really your ability to make money is less about your access and your reputation. This is more about like, can you just analyze a public opportunity that everyone else has access to better than average? Uh I still think it people do it. I think people like to give money to people that they trust and that they and I think easy way to build that trust is just to be visible. In many cases, people uh conflate familiarity with trust, uh, which can be good and bad. Um, but I think it it works. And as far as like activist investing, maybe like another part of this is I mean, this may be my own personal view, but everyone has their each each each their own, they've run in its own style. I think the second that you have to, as an outside shareholder, that like maybe you did a ton of diligence, maybe you spent a year diligent this business. The second that you as an outside shareholder are jumping in because shit is so bad to make a decision, fair, dude. Just like sell the sell the sell the like sell it. Like you're you're not you're not like locked up, just like there's so many other ways to make money, or so many like great businesses. Like one of the great things about because I remember this is actually something I thought about with with with syncrecy early on, is okay, wow, you know what? We have this decentralized governance. Like, what if I was super involved in governance forums and I could like make an impact? And then I thought about that. I'm like, damn, the things I can make an impact on, they kind of suck. Like, I don't want to I don't want to be involved in like the token holder voting process. And the things that actually I want to own are things like hype. Like, there's nothing I could tell Jeff and Co. Nothing that would make their product better, and that's great. That's great. Like, they should be the experts, they should be the ones that don't need me, and I'm just a guy who's just holding it and maybe observing an educational role. Um that's it. All right.

SPEAKER_01 59:01

Sick take, honestly. Yeah, good take. It's like the uh the club that they want you in, you don't want to be part of kind of thing. Um I love it. Thanks for the take. Um, all right, I'll let you guys go. Top of the hour. Thank you so much. It was an absolute pleasure. Congratulations again. I look forward to part part four. It's always great to have you guys on. And uh yeah, have a go Nixon six, man. All right, guys, thank you so much. Have a good day. Peace later. Movie.